Post by Don Gieseke on Mar 26, 2016 6:33:26 GMT -6
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-20/flydubai-jet-crash-kills-62-in-failed-russia-landing-attempt
See below for some insider poop from a FlyDubai pilot. Ya had to know there
was a reason they held for so long.
..............
For the love of god!!! The 2 hours holding is standard FlyDB operations. We
are routinely sent to somewhere we knew we couldn't get into with little
prospect of being able to get into it with boatloads of fuel and told give
it a go. If you didn't then you came under the scrutiny of the chief pilot
who had a penchant for bullying crew and making careers untenable.
9/10 times we would do just that fly 3/4/5hrs get their hold have a look
try again if necessary and more times that not we would divert.
The route they were flying was not one that more senior pilots would ever
pick as it is known for crap weather, is captain only landing and its dark
o'clock. It was just one of those places that you hoped to not get on your
roster and if you did and if you couldn't swap it then you hoped you had
one of those nights where there was a break in the crap weather and you
could get in. If not you rocked up with extra stuff as you knew you could
easily end up in a hotel.
FDB heap commercial pressure on crews way past the normal anyone else but
if you have your family stuck in the middle east you have a choice do what
they ask be it carry lithium batteries, operate outside of FTLs, ignore
assaults on crew etc or loose your job and possibly your career.
It wasn't that we didn't know that but most of us just took the money and
hoped to not be the crew of FZ981 before we got either enough
money/hours/experience in LHS, etc to move to somewhere else.
The chief pilots favourite saying is "if you don't like it leave!" it was
his solution to every problem given and the culture of fear has eroded the
culture of safety to such an extent that most pilots were unlikely torpor
anything but the most serious incidents as they knew they were simply
raising their heads above the parapet.
Re the numerous posts from experts on here who have not operated in the
Middle east, who have not flown in Russian airspace and who do not know
anything about HGS/HUD ops suggest you use the two ears more than the one
mouth and though of course you are interested but your conjecture does
nothing to help do anything other than muddy the waters.
FDB never ever do coupled approaches. All CAT3a, CAT2 and CAT1 are manually
flown to the ground. All low vis is hand flown. All low vis is hand flown
on the HGS. All approaches in Russia are flown on QNH we have LIDO tables
with a conversion table on EVRY Plate.
If you find a pilot in FZ unfamiliar with flying in metres and getting wind
in metres per second then they are very very new indeed. There would have
been little to no confusion in the crews mind about altimeter settings,
when to set or change and wind in mps as it is an almost every day
occurrence in Russia and we have/had 18 routes to Russia which is pretty
significant.
What happened, I have a guess the same as any other pilot and more so with
other 737 pilots and even more so with 737NG pilots. The factors are facts
and everything else at this stage is clearly conjecture. Did they make and
error in the GA, was their catastrophic failure of something or other, was
it an act of god? That will all come out pretty soon.
What isn't conjecture however is that colleagues are dead and the weather
was crap on departure, estimated to be crap at ETA, estimated to be crap
until way past the point of full tanks and they left with the FDB standard
cunning plan of well maybe it will be okay. If you want a fact it is that
not many airlines would consider that normal they would simply wait at base
until it was at least predicted to be likely and then leave.
FZ don't do that why? ask the Chief Pilot. He as an uber pilot and uber
human knows better than everyone else he evens knows that black is in fact
white and can prove it when called upon to do so and is above the law as
demonstrated on innumerous occasions.
So yes whilst of course factors such as starting a new job etc would have
been a factor the reality is FDB take 7 days minimum to sort your visa out
when you leave and frequently take longer because we the crew do not
matter, were not humans are simply slaves to be abused at their whim so why
would looking after us or our families matter. So yes these factors exist
but lets be honest we have all heard the tape. They called the GA and did
it so the why were they there and why wait so long is simple, that is what
NCC demanded they do. Why because the Chief Pilot lets them do whatever
they please and refuses to exert any control over what is directly his area
of responsibility because nothing is important except his pay check.
I hope the money is worth it and I hope the families of the departed get to
see him face to face, look him in the eye in the full knowledge of how he
runs his ship.
I would have hoped and likely thought that the skipper and FO having had
almost two hours to discuss it. Went through actions on seeing the required
visual references and actions on one or both being unhappy and if 'you'
perceive a little quelle surprise in one or other pilots voices it is
likely a joint one of , 'why are we even here in the first place'. Which
having flown for 6 hrs and flown two go arounds is not that unreasonable a
question!
In any other airline diverting would a) likely not have been necessary as
they likely wouldn't have dispatched and b) if they had done so would have
been patted on the back by the aboves for taking the decision.
FZ doesn't work like that. NCC send you ACARS messages saying. DO NO
DIVERT, Chief Pilot says continue. NCC will tell you that you will be
reported if you don't hold. NCC tell you that you cannot offload passengers
who assault crew or are drunk. NCC of course aren't legally responsible as
you correctly say the crew had the ability to say no. But in reality they
had as much ability to say no as people had not to get in the box cars back
in the day.
See below for some insider poop from a FlyDubai pilot. Ya had to know there
was a reason they held for so long.
..............
For the love of god!!! The 2 hours holding is standard FlyDB operations. We
are routinely sent to somewhere we knew we couldn't get into with little
prospect of being able to get into it with boatloads of fuel and told give
it a go. If you didn't then you came under the scrutiny of the chief pilot
who had a penchant for bullying crew and making careers untenable.
9/10 times we would do just that fly 3/4/5hrs get their hold have a look
try again if necessary and more times that not we would divert.
The route they were flying was not one that more senior pilots would ever
pick as it is known for crap weather, is captain only landing and its dark
o'clock. It was just one of those places that you hoped to not get on your
roster and if you did and if you couldn't swap it then you hoped you had
one of those nights where there was a break in the crap weather and you
could get in. If not you rocked up with extra stuff as you knew you could
easily end up in a hotel.
FDB heap commercial pressure on crews way past the normal anyone else but
if you have your family stuck in the middle east you have a choice do what
they ask be it carry lithium batteries, operate outside of FTLs, ignore
assaults on crew etc or loose your job and possibly your career.
It wasn't that we didn't know that but most of us just took the money and
hoped to not be the crew of FZ981 before we got either enough
money/hours/experience in LHS, etc to move to somewhere else.
The chief pilots favourite saying is "if you don't like it leave!" it was
his solution to every problem given and the culture of fear has eroded the
culture of safety to such an extent that most pilots were unlikely torpor
anything but the most serious incidents as they knew they were simply
raising their heads above the parapet.
Re the numerous posts from experts on here who have not operated in the
Middle east, who have not flown in Russian airspace and who do not know
anything about HGS/HUD ops suggest you use the two ears more than the one
mouth and though of course you are interested but your conjecture does
nothing to help do anything other than muddy the waters.
FDB never ever do coupled approaches. All CAT3a, CAT2 and CAT1 are manually
flown to the ground. All low vis is hand flown. All low vis is hand flown
on the HGS. All approaches in Russia are flown on QNH we have LIDO tables
with a conversion table on EVRY Plate.
If you find a pilot in FZ unfamiliar with flying in metres and getting wind
in metres per second then they are very very new indeed. There would have
been little to no confusion in the crews mind about altimeter settings,
when to set or change and wind in mps as it is an almost every day
occurrence in Russia and we have/had 18 routes to Russia which is pretty
significant.
What happened, I have a guess the same as any other pilot and more so with
other 737 pilots and even more so with 737NG pilots. The factors are facts
and everything else at this stage is clearly conjecture. Did they make and
error in the GA, was their catastrophic failure of something or other, was
it an act of god? That will all come out pretty soon.
What isn't conjecture however is that colleagues are dead and the weather
was crap on departure, estimated to be crap at ETA, estimated to be crap
until way past the point of full tanks and they left with the FDB standard
cunning plan of well maybe it will be okay. If you want a fact it is that
not many airlines would consider that normal they would simply wait at base
until it was at least predicted to be likely and then leave.
FZ don't do that why? ask the Chief Pilot. He as an uber pilot and uber
human knows better than everyone else he evens knows that black is in fact
white and can prove it when called upon to do so and is above the law as
demonstrated on innumerous occasions.
So yes whilst of course factors such as starting a new job etc would have
been a factor the reality is FDB take 7 days minimum to sort your visa out
when you leave and frequently take longer because we the crew do not
matter, were not humans are simply slaves to be abused at their whim so why
would looking after us or our families matter. So yes these factors exist
but lets be honest we have all heard the tape. They called the GA and did
it so the why were they there and why wait so long is simple, that is what
NCC demanded they do. Why because the Chief Pilot lets them do whatever
they please and refuses to exert any control over what is directly his area
of responsibility because nothing is important except his pay check.
I hope the money is worth it and I hope the families of the departed get to
see him face to face, look him in the eye in the full knowledge of how he
runs his ship.
I would have hoped and likely thought that the skipper and FO having had
almost two hours to discuss it. Went through actions on seeing the required
visual references and actions on one or both being unhappy and if 'you'
perceive a little quelle surprise in one or other pilots voices it is
likely a joint one of , 'why are we even here in the first place'. Which
having flown for 6 hrs and flown two go arounds is not that unreasonable a
question!
In any other airline diverting would a) likely not have been necessary as
they likely wouldn't have dispatched and b) if they had done so would have
been patted on the back by the aboves for taking the decision.
FZ doesn't work like that. NCC send you ACARS messages saying. DO NO
DIVERT, Chief Pilot says continue. NCC will tell you that you will be
reported if you don't hold. NCC tell you that you cannot offload passengers
who assault crew or are drunk. NCC of course aren't legally responsible as
you correctly say the crew had the ability to say no. But in reality they
had as much ability to say no as people had not to get in the box cars back
in the day.